Re: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

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Re: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
Hello folks,

I sent the message quoted below to llvm-dev@ just now, but it applies to the whole community so sending an FYI here. Probably best to follow up w/ discussion on llvm-dev.

The archive link for reference is here:

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.

Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.

Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]

We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362

There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:

We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.

I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.

-Chandler

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Re: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
FWIW I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source projects. Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell (?).

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 3:15 AM Chandler Carruth via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello folks,

I sent the message quoted below to llvm-dev@ just now, but it applies to the whole community so sending an FYI here. Probably best to follow up w/ discussion on llvm-dev.

The archive link for reference is here:

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.

Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.

Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]

We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362

There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:

We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.

I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.

-Chandler
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
Are the barriers to newcomers really the tools and not just the community's general attitude toward newcomers?

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019, 8:11 AM Nico Weber via llvm-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
FWIW I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source projects. Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell (?).

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 3:15 AM Chandler Carruth via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello folks,

I sent the message quoted below to llvm-dev@ just now, but it applies to the whole community so sending an FYI here. Probably best to follow up w/ discussion on llvm-dev.

The archive link for reference is here:

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone,

Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.

Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.

Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]

We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362

There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:

We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.

I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.

-Chandler
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Re: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
In reply to this post by Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:10 PM Nico Weber via cfe-dev
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> FWIW I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source projects. Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell (?).
+1. I don't believe this decision was well thought-through.
The Discord's ToS, lack of open-source clients (if you can even call
the situation like that,
feels like ICQ/Skype all over again), centralization, etc; are pretty
'major' regressions.

As a general, not really LLVM-specific remark,
I find it worrying that the noble goal of usability improvement/entry
barrier lowering is being applied with only said endgoal in mind
and no real assessment of the approach taken, the effect produced
by such approach and the cost it incurs on the existing
ecosystem/community/etc.
But this is very much the norm in nowadays world :/


Roman.

> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 3:15 AM Chandler Carruth via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I sent the message quoted below to llvm-dev@ just now, but it applies to the whole community so sending an FYI here. Probably best to follow up w/ discussion on llvm-dev.
>>
>> The archive link for reference is here:
>> http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2019-November/136880.html
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> Short version:
>>> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>>
>>> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>>>
>>> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>>>
>>> Longer version & more details:
>>> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>>>
>>> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>>
>>> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>>>
>>> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>>>
>>> See the plan here: https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>>>
>>> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>>> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
>>>
>>>
>>> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>>>
>>> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>>>
>>> -Chandler
>>
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>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
In reply to this post by Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
Hi all,

> On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 08:09 -0500, Nico Weber via llvm-dev wrote:FWIW
> I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source projects.
> Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell
> (?).

As regards this, I wonder if Matrix (matrix.org) has been considered at
all? It's an open standard protocol with a number of open source
clients that behaves very similarly to Slack/Discord. A number of other
open source communities I follow are using this already.

David Truby
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Re: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
In reply to this post by Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the like. The corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you legally to use any of those tools at hand. There are rarely any technical barriers or countermeasures, though.

Roman Lebedev via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2019. nov. 18., H, 16:08):
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:10 PM Nico Weber via cfe-dev
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> FWIW I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source projects. Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell (?).
+1. I don't believe this decision was well thought-through.
The Discord's ToS, lack of open-source clients (if you can even call
the situation like that,
feels like ICQ/Skype all over again), centralization, etc; are pretty
'major' regressions.

As a general, not really LLVM-specific remark,
I find it worrying that the noble goal of usability improvement/entry
barrier lowering is being applied with only said endgoal in mind
and no real assessment of the approach taken, the effect produced
by such approach and the cost it incurs on the existing
ecosystem/community/etc.
But this is very much the norm in nowadays world :/


Roman.

> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 3:15 AM Chandler Carruth via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I sent the message quoted below to llvm-dev@ just now, but it applies to the whole community so sending an FYI here. Probably best to follow up w/ discussion on llvm-dev.
>>
>> The archive link for reference is here:
>> http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2019-November/136880.html
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> Short version:
>>> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>>
>>> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>>>
>>> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>>>
>>> Longer version & more details:
>>> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>>>
>>> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>>
>>> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>>>
>>> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>>>
>>> See the plan here: https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>>>
>>> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>>> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
>>>
>>>
>>> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>>>
>>> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>>>
>>> -Chandler
>>
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 08:44, Whisperity via llvm-dev
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the like.

This is a big uphill fight that is rarelly worthy. Not to mention
privacy guarantees and terms and conditions that are not "fixed" by
OSS tooling.

> The corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you legally to use any of those tools at hand.

That doesn't sound good.

Also, many companies have "approved list" of software, which a "gaming
chat app" will rarely be.

I'd have to subvert  the private license *and* my company's security
policies. I can assure you, this won't end well.

Slack isn't much better in general, tbh, but more companies allow them
on corporate networks.

IRC has a ton of problems, too, but it's our default. We should only
move to a better tool, not a different tool. We want to bring in new
people without alienating old people, like me.

Discourse seems to be OSS GPLv2, so we could host our own and apply
our own CoC / moderating if providers are not able to meet our needs.
I have real trouble using web BBSs (text ones over dialup were fine),
so I'd really appreciate an email/subscription mechanism.

If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
reasonable (or we get tired of it).

This was a big point in using Github (vs. self-hosted): it's git, we
can move out whenever we want. We should keep that constraint for
every tool we use.

--renato
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:18 PM Renato Golin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 08:44, Whisperity via llvm-dev
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the like.
>
> This is a big uphill fight that is rarelly worthy. Not to mention
> privacy guarantees and terms and conditions that are not "fixed" by
> OSS tooling.
>
> > The corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you legally to use any of those tools at hand.
>
> That doesn't sound good.
>
> Also, many companies have "approved list" of software, which a "gaming
> chat app" will rarely be.
>
> I'd have to subvert  the private license *and* my company's security
> policies. I can assure you, this won't end well.
>
> Slack isn't much better in general, tbh, but more companies allow them
> on corporate networks.
>
> IRC has a ton of problems, too, but it's our default. We should only
> move to a better tool, not a different tool. We want to bring in new
> people without alienating old people, like me.
>
> Discourse seems to be OSS GPLv2, so we could host our own and apply
> our own CoC / moderating if providers are not able to meet our needs.
> I have real trouble using web BBSs (text ones over dialup were fine),
> so I'd really appreciate an email/subscription mechanism.
>
> If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
> Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
> whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
> reasonable (or we get tired of it).
>
> This was a big point in using Github (vs. self-hosted): it's git, we
> can move out whenever we want. We should keep that constraint for
> every tool we use.
+1.

All this disscussion is slightly jumbled together,because i think
a move from IRC to discord/slack/etc, and a move from
mailing lists to Discourse, are two *very* different discussions.
I think latter (provided there is still mail integration!) may be
easy to sell. But the choice of tools in former is just a non-starter.

If anything, Matrix.org does indeed seem like an (only) possible
alternative there.

> --renato

Roman
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
Yes, forums and chat are very different ways of communication, all of which require different toolings. Have had the same arguments sometimes in other communities who tried to police their Discord like it was a forum, for example.

One big problem with Discord is that the client doesn't allow you to be logged in with multiple personalities, unlike Slack. This is easily fixed by running in browser with "multi-account containers" enabled (a really kickass feature, mind), but the desktop client would need constant log-in--log-out between accounts if someone, like me, doesn't want to mix or pollute their "gaming account" (so to say) with "work", and the other way around.

Also, running Discord is a nice distraction from work and even though one could say "Hey I develop LLVM I need this to communicate with the peers" there will be the other 70+ gaming-related servers constantly nagging for attention...

I get that Discord is technically free for game communities and such, but there might be the subtle small-script at the bottom of terms which could result in them going and asking money from LLVM Foundation for using their platform for "commercial purposes" or something?

CppLanguage Slack has an #llvm channel. Then again, if "millions of us" flood that workspace, the price will go up for the peeps behind that rent too...

But let's get some positive news: compared to IRC, Discord has persistency in terms of ability to scroll up and see older messages (without using third-party log sites) and the ability to ping someone (without use of bouncers). That's certainly a plus. I have never heard of Matrix before, however.

Roman Lebedev <[hidden email]> ezt írta (időpont: 2019. nov. 20., Sze, 12:04):
On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:18 PM Renato Golin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 08:44, Whisperity via llvm-dev
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the like.
>
> This is a big uphill fight that is rarelly worthy. Not to mention
> privacy guarantees and terms and conditions that are not "fixed" by
> OSS tooling.
>
> > The corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you legally to use any of those tools at hand.
>
> That doesn't sound good.
>
> Also, many companies have "approved list" of software, which a "gaming
> chat app" will rarely be.
>
> I'd have to subvert  the private license *and* my company's security
> policies. I can assure you, this won't end well.
>
> Slack isn't much better in general, tbh, but more companies allow them
> on corporate networks.
>
> IRC has a ton of problems, too, but it's our default. We should only
> move to a better tool, not a different tool. We want to bring in new
> people without alienating old people, like me.
>
> Discourse seems to be OSS GPLv2, so we could host our own and apply
> our own CoC / moderating if providers are not able to meet our needs.
> I have real trouble using web BBSs (text ones over dialup were fine),
> so I'd really appreciate an email/subscription mechanism.
>
> If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
> Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
> whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
> reasonable (or we get tired of it).
>
> This was a big point in using Github (vs. self-hosted): it's git, we
> can move out whenever we want. We should keep that constraint for
> every tool we use.
+1.

All this disscussion is slightly jumbled together,because i think
a move from IRC to discord/slack/etc, and a move from
mailing lists to Discourse, are two *very* different discussions.
I think latter (provided there is still mail integration!) may be
easy to sell. But the choice of tools in former is just a non-starter.

If anything, Matrix.org does indeed seem like an (only) possible
alternative there.

> --renato

Roman

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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
In reply to this post by Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 11:04, Roman Lebedev <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If anything, Matrix.org does indeed seem like an (only) possible
> alternative there.

Wow. This thing looks awesome!

Interoperability (irc, email, slack, XMPP, even discord), federation,
open standard, OSS reference implementations, end-to-end encryption,
even available on F-Droid!

Honestly, looks like it ticks all the boxes an open community would require.

--renato
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Fwd: [llvm-dev] Load llvm and clang source tree in QtCreator

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
In reply to this post by Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
How to open llvm and clang source tree in QtCreator in same project. I need to write project using clang but also I need to navigate through llvm sources (not only headers). Previous versions of llvm allow clang sources to be located in llvm / tools / clang, but it seems that current versions need clang (and libcxx, ...) in separate directories. So when I open main CmakeList of llvm in QtCreator there is no clang in QtCreator project. Naturally I can preinstall llvm libraries and clang cmake automatically will find them and will dinamically linkclang with then. But I need also llvm sources to be seen in IDE.


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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
In reply to this post by Tom Stellard via cfe-dev


On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 1:18 AM Renato Golin via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
reasonable (or we get tired of it).

I disagree.   This thread is about an IRC replacement, not about a forum replacement . It is inherently for discussions of a transient nature whose history need not be preserved.  Like "Hey @rengolin, what's the status of bug N that you were looking at?"  Even idle chit-chat and banter.  Exactly the kinds of discussions that preserving history is not useful for.  

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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 17:23, Zachary Turner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
>> Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
>> whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
>> reasonable (or we get tired of it).
>
> I disagree.   This thread is about an IRC replacement, not about a forum replacement . It is inherently for discussions of a transient nature whose history need not be preserved.  Like "Hey @rengolin, what's the status of bug N that you were looking at?"  Even idle chit-chat and banter.  Exactly the kinds of discussions that preserving history is not useful for.

This thread is for both.

That paragraph was about the forum replacement.

I agree preserving history of chats aren't useful.
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
In reply to this post by Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 21:36, Whisperity via llvm-dev
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> there will be the other 70+ gaming-related servers constantly nagging for attention...

I very literally cannot cope with that at all. I can't "just filter"
the noise on my own, so, if that becomes the norm, I'll be forced to
pass.
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
There is absolutely no reason why that would happen. 

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 2:20 PM Renato Golin via llvm-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 21:36, Whisperity via llvm-dev
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> there will be the other 70+ gaming-related servers constantly nagging for attention...

I very literally cannot cope with that at all. I can't "just filter"
the noise on my own, so, if that becomes the norm, I'll be forced to
pass.
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
If I am not mistaken, there are two things that are becoming clear:
1. For email, nobody seems to be against Discourse as long as the mailing lists are still a supported way to participate. So this seems non-controversial.
2. For IRC, people seem to be happy with switching to a more modern solution, but Discord is largely disliked by a significant portion of respondents.

So perhaps we can focus the discussion on "if not Discord, what else?"

Slack appears to be problematic due to lack of moderation capabilities. Although I don't understand that, I think it is fine - does not meet a key goal so we can't consider it.

This Matrix thing was brought up by some as a possibly viable way forward. Can we look into whether it meets all the goals?

Perhaps a good start would be to list the goals. So far it seems like:
- moderation capabilities
- no terms of service that give the provider ownership of content for all eternity
- IRC integration
- preferably open source and standard protocols
- free?

And probably a bunch of other goals.

On Wed., Nov. 20, 2019, 5:27 p.m. Eric Christopher via llvm-dev, <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is absolutely no reason why that would happen. 

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 2:20 PM Renato Golin via llvm-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 21:36, Whisperity via llvm-dev
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> there will be the other 70+ gaming-related servers constantly nagging for attention...

I very literally cannot cope with that at all. I can't "just filter"
the noise on my own, so, if that becomes the norm, I'll be forced to
pass.
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
Hi,

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 10:23 Nemanja Ivanovic via cfe-dev, <[hidden email]> wrote:

1. For email, nobody seems to be against Discourse as long as the mailing lists are still a supported way to participate. So this seems non-controversial.

Does this mean that discussions will end up split into two places (Email and Discourse) ?

Or, will Discourse push forum messages to the mailing list, and pull replies from the mailing list to the forum ?

Cheers,
.Andrea

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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
In reply to this post by Tom Stellard via cfe-dev


On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 4:52 PM Nemanja Ivanovic via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
If I am not mistaken, there are two things that are becoming clear:
1. For email, nobody seems to be against Discourse as long as the mailing lists are still a supported way to participate. So this seems non-controversial.
2. For IRC, people seem to be happy with switching to a more modern solution, but Discord is largely disliked by a significant portion of respondents.

So perhaps we can focus the discussion on "if not Discord, what else?"

Slack appears to be problematic due to lack of moderation capabilities. Although I don't understand that, I think it is fine - does not meet a key goal so we can't consider it.

This Matrix thing was brought up by some as a possibly viable way forward. Can we look into whether it meets all the goals?

Perhaps a good start would be to list the goals. So far it seems like:
- moderation capabilities
- no terms of service that give the provider ownership of content for all eternity
- IRC integration
- preferably open source and standard protocols
- free?

I’m still not totally sold on needing extensive moderation capabilities.  As mentioned earlier, Chromium — an open source project with more developers than LLVM — has a code of conduct similar to LLVMs and manages to get by with a Slack server while still maintaining their code of conduct.  It’s possible we’re fundamentally different than Chromium in some way, but I’d like to understand what those are before we decide it’s impossible to have a professional and welcoming environment, because there seems to be an existence proof to the contrary.

IRC integration, as far as i can tell, is an explicit *non* goal.

FWIW, imo the best way to be welcoming to be new people and/or outsiders is to use tools that they probably already have some exposure to.  Being open source is a nice-to-have, but I think it’s a mistake to weigh that heavily in comparison to usability, familiarity, and feature set

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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
In reply to this post by Tom Stellard via cfe-dev


On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 6:04 PM Andrea Bocci via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 10:23 Nemanja Ivanovic via cfe-dev, <[hidden email]> wrote:

1. For email, nobody seems to be against Discourse as long as the mailing lists are still a supported way to participate. So this seems non-controversial.

Does this mean that discussions will end up split into two places (Email and Discourse) ?

Or, will Discourse push forum messages to the mailing list, and pull replies from the mailing list to the forum ?

This is how Discourse works. Users have to enable "mailing-list mode" in their profile and then they get a direct email update and can answer on the emails, their answer gets added to the thread on Discourse. I tried inline answers and it seemed to work well.

-- 
Mehdi

 

Cheers,
.Andrea
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Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
I might be biased on the issue because I already use IRC for so many other purposes. I love the status quo. 

But we are talking about people coding C++ and especially people who want to contribute to LLVM. LLVM is a rather complex machine. I don't feel like installing mIRC or whatever user-friendly IRC client should be too complex compared to fetching, compiling, contributing, testing and finally pushing to the LLVM project.

Would our efforts be better focused elsewhere? Better guides for introductions or perhaps a handful of people volunteering for helping some hopefuls to get started?

Best regards,
Mads Ravn

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 7:41 AM Mehdi AMINI via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 6:04 PM Andrea Bocci via cfe-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 10:23 Nemanja Ivanovic via cfe-dev, <[hidden email]> wrote:

1. For email, nobody seems to be against Discourse as long as the mailing lists are still a supported way to participate. So this seems non-controversial.

Does this mean that discussions will end up split into two places (Email and Discourse) ?

Or, will Discourse push forum messages to the mailing list, and pull replies from the mailing list to the forum ?

This is how Discourse works. Users have to enable "mailing-list mode" in their profile and then they get a direct email update and can answer on the emails, their answer gets added to the thread on Discourse. I tried inline answers and it seemed to work well.

-- 
Mehdi

 

Cheers,
.Andrea
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